I have heard some Christians admit that, other than the problem of evil, the so-called “hiddenness of God” is the best argument against God.
I am less impressed with this argument.
The idea is more or less that if God wants us to believe in Him, why doesn’t he just show up? Why is he so hidden?
God’s Not Hidden
I don’t believe God to be hidden. That we exist at all blows my mind. To think the complexity of this universe and the irreducible complexity of life began with blind, material causes seems like an absolute absurdity to me.
That people don’t believe in God absolutely blows my mind, at least as equally as it blows an atheists mind that people really believe the Bible is divinely inspired.
God seems overwhelmingly present and obvious to me, so I can’t admit that He is hidden because that would be dishonest of me.
He Already Did
But some will say, “Why doesn’t Jesus just pop in every once and awhile to remind us?”
Let’s see, last time he did, the world crucified him.
Jesus showed up in the flesh, God incarnate, performed miracles for all to see, and they crucified him as a blasphemer.
To think this generation would do something different is just arrogance.
I Don’t Believe You
To be frank, I don’t believe many people who say they would follow God if such-and-such evidence were available.
We have numerous arguments, supported by all kinds of evidences, and yet people will say, “Well, if I had this kind of evidence, I would believe.” Here are two dozen or so to get you started.
I don’t believe you. I don’t believe you because I’ve heard too many atheists say, “Actually, if I saw ‘God loves you’ written in the stars, I would assume that either I was hallucinating, or that an alien wrote it.”
No Convincing
The bottom line is that for some people there is just no convincing. That’s a hard pill to swallow, but it is clearly true.
It doesn’t mean that we ever give up.
It does mean that I don’t buy this “God is hidden” crap.
There is sufficient evidence for belief in God. There is also sufficient room for doubt.
Ultimately, God wants a relationship with us. The end goal is not to prove himself to us, but to have us in His family.
There is no guarantee that if God revealed himself in the specific way that some people want him to, that they would actually follow him. They may still reject him, like the Israelites in the wilderness did, or like the people did to Jesus.
So, sorry, but I don’t believe God is hidden at all.
Haden Clark 
Stating that something is or isn’t hidden presumes it is there in the first place.
Demonstrating this simple fact is a whole new ball game and one you are not going to succeed at..
That’s why faith is required of believers.
The day every believer demands evidence is the day their religion collapses.
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Yes, this article clearly wasn’t an argument for God’s existence. But i have written plenty on that subject. This was aimed at Christians who cede that God is “hidden.” I demanded evidence years ago and am still around, but okay.
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Ah … so you accept that your god is real but based solely on faith not evidence.
Don’t you consider it would demonstrate your personal integrity if you actually relied solely on evidence?
If you were suffering from an illness would you so glibly allow an unqualified individual to inject you with a phial of clear liquid on the grounds it will ”make you feel better”.
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I literally just said it was the evidence that convinced me. And thst i have written extensively on that evidence.
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Could you summarize here…. bullet points will do.
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Replace you chosen “god” with Allah, Yahweh, Shiva, etc., and you’ll understand why people are atheists. Atheism is believing in one less god than you, it is as simple as that. That said, it should matter what you, or I, or anyone else believes in. Faith (or lack of faith) in god(s) should be a personal experience. Sadly, in some countries it is not.
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“I don’t believe God to be hidden. That we exist at all blows my mind. To think the complexity of this universe and the irreducible complexity of life began with blind, material causes seems like an absolute absurdity to me.” This is the usual argument by many, if not most, religions. Their god is the creator. Can you show your version of the Christian god is the creator?
“Jesus showed up in the flesh, God incarnate, performed miracles for all to see, and they crucified him as a blasphemer.To think this generation would do something different is just arrogance.”
No, your assumption that this god would be killed again is an excuse for your god and its evident nonexistence. Your god required this cruxifiction to forgive humans for the sin it made happen by either being too stupid to keep the serpent out or intentionally let it in to cause the sin. It’s a shame that you want to blame humans for something your god insisted upon.
“To be frank, I don’t believe many people who say they would follow God if such-and-such evidence were available.” That’s another excuse you’ve invented since you can’t show the evidence for your god’s existence. It’s makes it easy to falsely accuse others of not being willing to accept what you have. And you want people to buy a book with this supposed “evidence”. Nope, not going to do that. There are more than enough websites that contain the same nonsense. Present what you think is evidence for your god here. For example, Plantinga wants to rely on the teological argument, the argument from design. He also quotes Isaac Newton, which I always find amusing since Newton was an antitrinitarian, something that goes against what Plantinga claims. Any theist can use the teological argument as evidence for their particular god. And they can do the same with nearly all of these two dozen supposed arguments. That’s what Christians forget, that they are arguing for any god, not just their version of their own.
“Ultimately, God wants a relationship with us. The end goal is not to prove himself to us, but to have us in His family.”
Then this god knows exactly what it will take for me to believe, right? And if it doesn’t present this, your claim is untrue. This god had no problem in presenting evidence to Thomas and to Gideon. Where is this evidence now?
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What evidence would you accept?
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I’m not sure yet. What do you think is the best evidence there is for your version of the Christian god?
The bible claims that any prayer will be answered quickly and positively. It also says that the baptized believes of Jesus Christ as savior can do healing miracles, or at least the elders can. I think seeing a Christian elder healing the a military veteran who lost a limb, or two or three in a IED explosion would be great.
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1. Resurrection, as argued by Gary Habermas and Mike Licona.
2. No it doesn’t.
3. No it doesn’t.
4. Would that be “great” or would it be enough to convert you?
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There is no evidence of a cruxifiction or a resurrection. Christians cannot even agree on where the supposed tomb is. This what Habermas claims:
1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
No evidence for this. Also no evidence for a certain day that there was a major earthquake, the sky darkening and the dead wandering around Roman-occupied Jerusalem.
2. He was buried.
No evidence of this.
3.His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
Not per your own bible, Luke 24 “And they worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy; 53 and they were continually in the temple blessing God.”
4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
as above, where is this tomb? And the stories of the gospels vary wildly in their stories about the tomb.
5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
The gospels reports vary wildly about what appearances there supposed were, and they contradict each other. You might want to read the bible than depend on what someone else tells you.
6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
Any religion can claim that. Heaven’s Gate, Jonestown, etc.
7. The resurrection was the central message.
only to some versions of Christians.
7They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
The Church was born and grew.
Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
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Lol im sorry, but you just asserted “no evidence” for facts that almost every historian accepts. But yes, I’m sure you know better. Thank you for enlightening us, and have a wonderful day.
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you have made a lie that “almost every historian” accepst the claims of the bible and Habermas. If this is the case, you should be able to list quite a few of them, right?
It’s rather cute to see you lie again and say that I “know better” in a attempt to lie and say I agree with you. I don’t. You might want to read Romans 3 where it says don’t lie, not even for your god.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gary_Habermas
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Rational wiki lol
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Yep, and I knew you’d try to discount it because of the name. Alas for you, you have no evidence for your “almost every historian” claim. You’ve been caught in a lie, Haden.
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Oh I have evidence and I’m working on an entire post with citations for you. Give me bout a week to put it together. I wanna be thorough
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I’ll be waiting. I am curious who “almost every historian” are, and how they believe in Jesus Christ, son of God existed.
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oops, hit the send too soon. oh well.
Alas for you yes, the bible says all the things I said it does. The bible says that the mountain will move as told, not erode into the sea, Knock and the door will be opened, not days later.
Luke 24: “9 “So I say to you, Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. 11 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for a fish, will give a snake instead of a fish? 12 Or if the child asks for an egg, will give a scorpion? 13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!””
Do you deny what your bible says?
If it healed a vet amputee, then yep, I’d convert. So, when can I meet you at a VA hospital?
The bible claims that any prayer will be answered quickly and positively. It also says that the baptized believes of Jesus Christ as savior can do healing miracles, or at least the elders can. I think seeing a Christian elder healing the a military veteran who lost a limb, or two or three in a IED explosion would be great.
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I agree that God is not hidden but it goes beyond the material things of the natural world. He gave us His holy word, passed down from Moses who foretold of a Savior in the third chapter of Genesis, to the history of Jesus’ bloodline, to the prophets who told the people of His coming, to His arrival and the witness of the Gospel writers that He fulfilled every prophecy of that savior, to His trials, and to His death for all sinners. When He rose again Easter morning, the old covenant was done away with and the New Covenant was in Christ. The Acts of the Apostles and epistles testify of His grace and power and offer proper guides of the Church and its mission and teachings. And John’s Revelation offers us the chance to see that though there are trials, God is always in control and has already won the war against Satan.
Sure, nature offers a stunning portrait of God’s majesty but we see Him most fully in His word which He preserved and gave to us. If one wants to “find God” (who was never missing in the first place), Scripture shows “the way, the truth, and the life” and that no one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ, His Son.
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CD, you claim that Revelation reveals trials. Now, considering your god forces humans to work with Satan (Revelation 17) and works with Satan in Revelation 19-21, to corrupt more Christians after this god kills all non-christians, exactly why should we worship a god that works with evil?
Most if not all religions make the claim that the universe is evidence of *their* god. Where is your evidence that your version of the Christian god is the creator and that all of the other gods aren’t?
Jesus was not prophecied. That’s why there are still Jews. JC doesn’t meet the qualifications, and Christians have done their best to invent prophecies.
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For your first statement about the passages in Revelation, you’ll have to walk me through your reasoning. I’ve not seen in those chapters and verses God working in accordance with the devil. I’m curious how you read it specifically.
As far as God creating the universe, all I have is the Bible and the faith God provides. I’m not particularly apologetically minded so I have little science to offer as of the moment. While science offers answers to many or most things our logical minds may want to lnow, it cannot effectively test that which is supernatural. The Bible tells us to “Preach the word” and Paul offered that he professed nothing else than Christ Jesus and Him crucified. Science is a wonderful gift from God but when I witness of God the Creator, I am concerned more of His message of salvation and the Holy Spirit creating faith through His word.
Jesus was prophecied in the OT and it again is seen in the witness of scripture. Each of the prophecies about Him were fulfilled and it can be traced by using the Bible as a guide. It is the source and norm of Christian doctrine. If anyone requires anything beyond it, I’m afraid I am but a man.
I do appreciate your willingness to actually look at Scripture and deviate from some of the talking points some have used. If I’ve used any myself feel free to draw my attention to it.
(Cool name, btw) 🙂
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Revelation 17 ” 17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by agreeing to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”
If you believe in free will, this action by your god is a problem.
Revelation 19 ““Come, gather for the great supper of God, 18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders—flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.” 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army. 20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. 21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.”
Revelation 20 “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a little while.
4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus[a] and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea.”
It’s not how I read it, it is what it says.
Science has no problem testing supernatural claims. Your bible claims tht this god has affected the earth in physical ways. Where is the evidence of that?
I know you are more interested in the message that you do not have to die and will be saved.
I’ve read the bible and I know that the prophecies fail for Jesus Christ and you can’t be traced by using the bible. It may be the “source and norm” of Christian doctrine; that doesn’t make it true.
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Habermas has never presented a single fact for the supposed resurrection of the character Jesus of Nazareth,
The only fact pertaining to the resurrection available to him and everyone else is the fact it is a tale contained in the texts known as the gospels.
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Love this. God can’t be hidden. He is real!.
I do say that “God is realer than even myself – touching my skin in the process”
When we look at the nature and all of its glory, we can’t deny His utmost existence at all. He is all around us – Grace!.
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do you realize that most, if not every, religion makes the same claim you do, that nature is evidence for their god? How can you show that it your version of your god?
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Smiles. The fact that we see such beauty and all He has created ascertain that He is REAL!
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So, a bot fly larva chewing its way out of a child’s eye is “beauty” in your opinion?
Since other religions make the same claim for their god, how can I tell it’s your version of the Christian god?
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